Nobody said it was easy ([info]copperbadge) wrote in [info]theoriginalsam,

Nameless Postscript: Talking With Twenty Five Hundred

You have to want to write, I say, not to want to be a writer.
-- Alex Haley

(NOTE: This is a link to a revised and expanded version of this postcript.)

Nameless Postscript: Talking With Twenty Five Hundred

I'm a blogger.

There's no other way to define it anymore, really. I'm not a published writer, never have been, potentially never will be -- never say die and all, but I have a steady job and I've made my peace with the rest.

But according to the statistics, 2500 people read my journal regularly. I doubt all of them actually do, some journals being long-dead and others being infrequently used, but adding in the people who don't friend and who don't have journals themselves, I would imagine it balances out.

This is interesting, because it means I am capable of asking for the view of a reading public without any of the fetters placed on a professional published writer, who trusts an editor and only gets to hear criticism from a readership after the book has been printed (which must be very frustrating). There are disadvantages, of course, but they mainly involve money and prestige, which aren't huge factors in my life. The advantages, in the process of putting a novel up, are much more important.

It wouldn't seem like serialising a novel, chapter by chapter, would be all that different from posting any other form of online fiction. I think the difference is in the attitude. Most of what I write is reasonably off-the-cuff and intended to entertain; I was never specifically asking for serious consideration and criticism, though I welcomed it if I got it. With Nameless, I said from the start that this was a book I intended to publish, a completed book that I wanted feedback on. It put people in a different mindset. They treated the story as a real book they wanted to discuss and pick apart as if they were reading it at a book club.

I don't know that a published writer has ever tried putting a "finished" work in front of a group of discerning readers and saying, "Tell me what's wrong." They can't afford to; they can't give away for free what they sell as a living. Throughout the process, people have said to me, isn't this weird? Have you ever seen anything like this? and I haven't.

What we did wouldn't even have been possible before the internet, or if it was possible would have been heinously expensive -- though the interaction between literature and cyberspace is a different essay entirely, though relevant. The point is that very few writers have ever overhauled a published work because of public criticism. Stephen King released an extended-cut of The Stand, and Marion Zimmer Bradley apparently rewrote a book she'd written twenty years before, but those are exceptions and not quite the same. George Lucas may have revamped Star Wars, but I'm pretty sure he did it over the protest of his fans, not in response to them.

Giving literature away for free and then expecting and embracing criticism is not a tradition of any kind. It is not something that is systematic. It is not something that is done in the literary world. I didn't plan this, I just stumbled into it, but here it is. It happened. I wanted to share a story and see what everyone thought of it, but instead I opened up a dialogue with a conscious readership about structure and interpretation and the author-reader relationship, about how to rewrite a book based on the thoughts and feelings of readers. I'm blown away by it all, and so pleased that people felt no need to pull punches. A mediocre book will be a really good book because of it. I'm a measurably better writer than I was two weeks ago, because of it.

Chapter by chapter, people told me what was wrong -- sometimes something as small as a mis-spelled word, sometimes a major structural issue with the book. I learned that my dialogue to action ratio is off, that my characterisation suffers somewhat (likely due to having trained in fanfic, where you don't need to build the characters because they're already there), and that sometimes my cryptic arcs aren't immediately obvious enough to draw a reader in. The ultimate importance of the first chapter in a book was never lost on me, but now I understand better how to build something immediate: not everyone is going to trust a writer long enough to get to the good stuff, and a relationship with the reader has to be forged very early.

Criticism is not something you can accept wholesale, of course. You have to pick and choose, but your readers know which way the wind is blowing. If a dozen people notice a single flaw, then it's not a single flaw, it's a problem that needs to be fixed. There is some give and take, and it's a wise child who knows when to listen, but overwhelmingly the advice has been good advice, because it's readers giving it. Readers know what throws them out of a book or why they don't trust a character or theme.

I think it takes a great deal of self-possession to undergo something like this, for that very reason: you are never going to please all of the people all of the time and if you try you will end up with a very bad book. At the same time, you still need to appreciate all viewpoints. You might not listen to what someone says, but you need to take it into account, process it, and thank them for it. They are offering you their honest opinion, which is a precious thing to a writer. Or should be.

I also learned what appealed to people -- what turn of phrase could catch a reader's eye, what subtle meanings people would draw from what I'd said. Very heady stuff.

At one point, in chapter eight, I got a lot of positive feedback. And I was, of course, thrilled, but I was also perplexed, because I hated most of the chapter. What struck me most of all about this process was that when I said to the readers "This is weird, I didn't like this chapter" people responded with criticism that I hadn't got before. This seemed to me to be part of trusting my instincts, but also a result of the situation, that I could say "Hey wait, I didn't like this" and get a response that paralleled my thoughts but offered insight I hadn't had. It validates my instincts to an extent, but also shows that if a writer is speaking to a readership about the book it's a different process from speaking to a readership through a book. Chapter eight only had one major flaw, but it was a serious one, and I could go to the readers and find out what their expectations were, what they wanted to see but didn't. Eight chapters into a book you generally know what you want from it.

Ironically, it's hard to articulate how I feel about the whole thing. People worried sometimes that I was hurt, that the criticism was crushing, but I didn't feel that way at all. I was too overwhelmed by what was happening, by what a unique experience it was for me. I felt like I was looking at some kind of inching step into the future of publishing, where a real dialogue could go on between a writer and a reader and that dialogue, rather than a writer's monologue, could be what went into the final print. We beta-tested my book. How weird and wonderful is that?

When I coined the term extribulum, which is a written work that has its first incarnation purely in digital media and is only printed as hardcopy afterwards, I was just screwing around with a science-fiction idea. Now I think there is an actual place for extribuli.

This is what happens when one person talks and twenty-five hundred listen...and then talk back. I could not be more proud.
Tags: nameless

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[info]elucreh

February 25 2009, 04:20:22 UTC 3 years ago

I have a friend who does something a little like this--she has three reading lists, one for first drafts, one for in-between drafts, and one for final nitpicking; Tier One is, I believe, about fourteen people in size, and she adds another six or so for every level.

I was invited to join Tier Three, ummmm...two years ago? I think? And then gradually bumped up the list as she learned (I hope, at least) that my opinions could be trusted as well as my eye for tense and typo.

What's fascinating to me, though, starting with the book in its raw form and watching it get bounced around first fourteen, then twenty, then thirty of us is how everybody catches something different. I know V had time for this round because the characterization is sharper; C only finishes about one flip in ten but suddenly the action sequences make considerably more sense when he does; B goes after vague modifiers with a commando squad. I'm pretty sure my fellow editors know when my lot of edits have been processed because my trademark is standing over the story saying "I do not need to be repeatedly hit in the head with this two-by-four; smack me once with a ruler and have done."

How fascinating in a different way to watch this book go up chapter-by-chapter (nobody knew the ending...it changed the feedback quite a bit, I think), and see the debate and point-to-point discussion. In my editor's life, I've had to figure out where people's specialties lie, because I'm not in direct contact with them; I don't even often discuss my points with the author, because if she had to have lengthy conversations with each and every one of us she wouldn't have time to write...she only contacts us when she disagrees with our points and wants to know why we made them. But here people have been able to jump in and say, "No, but--" and "Yes, exactly!" and it's really kind of cool.

I haven't been watching the commentary as much as I'd have liked to--too many papers due--much less been commenting myself (for which I apologise), but what I have seen has been interesting to watch.



P.S. Seanan's first book is coming out in September; she sold the trilogy in one go. Certainly I can understand changes in priority or ambition--as a woman who once wanted to be a literary agent currently in school to learn to work as a nanny, I certainly can understand that!--but I hope that being published eventually is something you will still pursue in some way. Twenty-five hundred is a lot of people, but I have a firm faith that more of the world than that deserves to hear what you have to say.

Perhaps all you need is a good set of editors...out of twenty-five hundred, surely thirty can be of some use.

[info]copperbadge

February 25 2009, 16:35:56 UTC 3 years ago

See, the idea of tiers, that's really cool -- and would work for pro writers, especially well-known ones, where an open system like mine wouldn't necessarily.

I'd love to be pro-published someday, but I've reached a point where, what with the blog and lulu, I'm not sure if the effort would be worth the reward. It's so hard to stand out in the crowd, even if you've done something great, you know? And I'm not sure anything I've done quite qualifies as that yet. I'm working on it though :D

[info]maggiebloome

February 25 2009, 05:53:00 UTC 3 years ago

I think we're all proud of you too. It takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there for serious criticism, and grace to accept it and make something useful of it.

(I loved the ending, by the way, and I agree with your notes where you said you'd be adding more physical presence to the relationship - definitely do that, there was a stretch of story beyond the point where I was reasonably sure you were planning on it being a romantic relationship when I still wondered if it was or not.)

Thank you for doing this, and thank you for your stories.

[info]hdluff4eva

February 25 2009, 06:00:49 UTC 3 years ago

See, now, I agree with the extribulum idea. If more authors did that, then I wouldn't have Marked sitting on my shelf and regretting that I spent money on it. I feel that, if authors get more feedback than just their closest friends and their editor, their story will be that much better. I'm a proof reader for one of my friend's novels, and I am that because she botched the first one by not letting me read it. Having anonymous people read and comment on flaws or plot gaps or what have you, chapter by chapter, will result in a better book over all.

IMHO, anyway.

Other than wishing it was longer, I loved it. I think that the scenes could have all been extended with description or whatever, but I don't know about the dialogue bit. I like reading dialogue. I'm used to having vauge descriptions of places or scenes and movements, so I found it very easy to imagine the high street of Low Ferry, even though every shop wasn't described in every detail. I could see the cafe across the street, even though every color of the place was not detailed. When I read, I tend to get bored with all the description and ect and just use my own mind to fill in the imagery and get to the plot. Like you said in Other People Can Smell You: You don't examine the visual scene then look for the dialogue. You absorb both at the same time. Err... end quote. Anyway, reading a bunch of description is like looking at the scene before paying attention to what people are saying. Yes it's nice to know sort of what a person looks like or where a place is relative to the viewpoint, but if there's too much, it just makes for boring.

As for characterization... I dunno... I found that with a lot of the characters, I was able to pick up on their personalities pretty quick.

I did have a slight issue with The Boy just disappearing like that... But reading the comments of the last chapter, I see you're thinking of ways to deal with that. Good on!

I'd read the first few chapters and then not read any up until tonight, cause I wanted to read it all in one go. So I did. Well spent evening I think!

HD

[info]nicocoer

February 25 2009, 06:40:36 UTC 3 years ago

I'm crying right now, in all honesty. Part of it is left over from the drinking game I played during the Obama speech earlier this evening- but that was more than three hours ago. No, what it is is that it has felt amazing to get to be a part of this, to have this experience that feels both new and at the same time something that you saw forming subconsciously.

The best way I can describe it is the same sort of joy and amazement I had the first time I made bread from scratch- the poking and kneading and then the yeast makes it rise and the oven bakes it and it comes out so golden and fresh and- and new. Except this is so many times larger.

Thank you for allowing us all to have this experience. It has been amazing.

[info]mcgonagalls_cat

February 25 2009, 06:49:58 UTC 3 years ago

Thank you for allowing us to practice being copy editors. It has been an honour!



.

[info]air_ocean

February 25 2009, 09:09:59 UTC 3 years ago

Thank you for doing it all, and letting us be part of the experiment - it was weird and wonderful, so I cannot even imagine how you feel as the author.
I think the way Nameless feels to me at the moment, having read the last chapter, is a lot like Christopher's mask felt to him - you can't really describe it, the beauty is almost invisible, just a shimmer - but it is undoubtedly beautiful and is undoubtedly a work of art.
So thank you, and I hope that in the future more people get to read this wonderful story about being human, being happy and just being.

[info]chicleeblair

February 25 2009, 10:23:25 UTC 3 years ago

You know, Sam, you really may have hit on something with this.... It's a bit like fanfiction writing with the ability to review--often writers alter stories based on them--but with a whole other level of 'this is a first draft'. It could be a new wave in digital literature....

[info]annemjw

February 25 2009, 11:42:56 UTC 3 years ago

This has certainly been interesting to watch, as well.

I know that being as busy as I was while you were posting meant that I spent less time giving feedback than I might have usually, but I did think it was interesting that I was also far more likely to want to give feedback if other people hadn't already covered the points I had been going to make. Which makes sense, I suppose, but probably does mean that there was stuff other people pointed out that I should have said 'Yes, I agree with that' or 'No, I don't', or 'I see what your getting at, here are my thoughts on yaoi' and such.

I'm pleased you're pleased. Or at least not thinking 'Oh my god, I am never doing this again what was I thinking?', because the social experiment nature of it has been just as interesting as the author/reader/editor dynamics that have gone on.

[info]copperbadge

February 25 2009, 14:58:35 UTC 3 years ago

Oh man, I can't wait to do this again :) I mean, I need some time to rest after the intensive and I need to edit both Nameless and Dead Isle and prep whatever else I have for crit, but it was really exciting. :)

[info]annemjw

3 years ago

[info]mbernardi

February 25 2009, 13:49:46 UTC 3 years ago

Thank you

First thanks for writing this, it was wonderful. I'd certainly pay money for a paper copy. I has a feel of a non fantasy fantasy. Not unlike my favourite author's latest series (Lois McMaster Bujold and the Sharing Knife series), not as polished of course ;-) but the magic / fantasy being somewhat out in left field.

Re writing or at least posting in front of an audience Sharon Lee and Steve Miller did something very like this in 2007 when they wrote Fledgling, then followed up with Saltation the following year. Only after initial web publication did they get a contract from Baen. They are established authors but even so I don't think they expected this end to the experiment.

[info]copperbadge

February 25 2009, 15:26:09 UTC 3 years ago

Re: Thank you

It's definitely been fun to write, and to get feedback on :)

I had no idea others were doing this as well, that's awesome! Thank you.

[info]debitha

February 25 2009, 14:20:36 UTC 3 years ago

This whole thing has been so fascinating, and I am very impressed with your courage at hanging yourself out there for 2500 people to have a go at. Getting your notes at each stage was very reassuring in a way - it not only let us know that you were taking our comments on board, but that you were taking it OK. I know that as I read some comments I was a bit taken aback by blunt bullet point lists of what was wrong, although some of those may have come from people you know reasonably well. It was impressive to see you just take it all in stride. I guess it helps that you know we're all here because we like your writing to start with.

One thing that I found really interesting was what it threw back to me about the way I read. I never realised quite how much I extrapolate the plot as I go. I've never joined a book club, as I tend to read at my own pace, so being able to read people's comments and discuss what we thought about it was great fun. And it was fascinating to see what people spotted that I had missed, what bothered other people that didn't bother me... so interesting!

[info]copperbadge

February 25 2009, 14:57:01 UTC 3 years ago

Well, everyone has their own style of editing, and having struggled often to convey the proper tone in an email I know that what comes off as blunt is sometimes just another person's idea of efficiency :D I know everyone who's commenting is doing it because they care about the book. :)

[info]skoosan

February 25 2009, 15:26:14 UTC 3 years ago

Thanks for letting us tackle it. I feel inordinately possessive of Nameless, now, having been through this process.

[info]pixiepanther

February 25 2009, 16:03:48 UTC 3 years ago

I can honestly say, that after reading The Dead Isle and Nameless, you are one of the very few writers that I enjoy no matter how different every peice is, get excited over when a new chapter is up, and I find myself looking forward to each new peice. It's really awesome that you were brave enough to put your work out there, tell people to rip it apart, and become a better writer because of it since most people won't. When you make the two aforementioned books available in a hard-copy, I'll be buying them and making friends read them.

You definitely have one hell of a talent and I can't wait to see what you churn up next, be it in a couple hours or a few months/years.

[info]cellophane_ria

February 25 2009, 16:05:11 UTC 3 years ago

Thank you! It's been fascinating to observe the whole process.

[info]jonaht

February 25 2009, 17:02:13 UTC 3 years ago

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing your creativity and your humor with us. It's a honor to be accepted in this community.

Putting out your story this way reminded me of the old days when an author would get his/her work out in a monthly installment in a magazine and readers would have to wait for the next chapter. Thanks for not making us wait that long!

[info]chiara7

February 25 2009, 23:13:00 UTC 3 years ago

For anyone who loves writing as both process and outcome, this has been a heady and unique experience. More than any other work I've read to date online, it has demonstrated the internet's potential for real dialogue between readers and writers. I've learned things from this that I'll use in teaching and writing and just thinking, and I'm immensely grateful for that.

I deliberately held off reading The Dead Isle until it was done. I read this daily (and with an addict's thrill), originally with the intent of commenting as I went along. But what quickly became apparent to me was that the story had to gain traction in my head before praise or criticism could make much sense. I often disagreed with in-progress comments because so many moments clearly related to a larger, as yet undisclosed whole. Now I have a better sense of what I think works, where the missed opportunities might lie, and which passages carry me along in their sheer readability. But I'm glad to have had the experience of reading serially first; I can remember clearly what my expectations were at different moments in the story, and bring those to bear on the whole.

To second what elucreh said above: I hope you'll invite your readership -- and certainly your most engaged critics -- to go back now and re-read the whole work, and see if they still stand by some of their earlier comments, or have even more specific suggestions to offer. I know that not all of us will be able to do this, but I intend to. The story is worth it. And I want to be able to tell the grandkids: "I was there when the extribulus was invented! I took part!"

[info]copperbadge

February 25 2009, 23:34:28 UTC 3 years ago

I think I will probably do a mild rewrite before I have people reread, but I do intend to invite people to give feedback knowing what's going to happen, now that I've had feedback without people knowing :D And I'd love your thoughts on the whole, of course.

[info]gaaak

February 27 2009, 07:22:54 UTC 3 years ago

I read all the chapters in one sitting (oh alright, two), because I've been busy. Things finally slowed down at work enough to give me time to read.

It must take an awful lot of courage to put out an original work like that; it's scary enough posting a fanfic. So big up, Sam!

I know it's been mentioned, but the whole hemlock incident really was rather jarring for me. I'll go back and re-read when I'm less tired, but it really didn't make any sense to me.

Also...I do like that the boy just disappeared from collective memory, but I would have liked seeing Christopher try to talk about him to Lucas. And some kind of resolution to it. Personally, it's not a mystery that needs to be solved; I never need to know who the boy was, where he came from, et cetera.
Christopher seems to have come to terms with the not knowing, and that's great. It merely strikes me as odd that it wouldn't be mentioned to Lucas, sort of a passing comment about the boy, and Lucas looking blank, or having a knowing light in his eyes but saying nothing. It just seems that Christopher is curious enough to at least mention it.

Hm. That was a bit awkwardly phrased. I hope you know what I mean; I don't always know how to express thoughts.


I'm glad this was a good experience for you. Was it as good for you as it was for us? ;)

Anonymous

February 27 2009, 21:41:51 UTC 3 years ago

I think I may steal your idea for sharing work on the web and asking for edits. It's a wonderful way to improve and help others improve. I've improved my writing by reading edits on yours. Thank you.

[info]copperbadge

February 28 2009, 18:30:50 UTC 3 years ago

I don't know about courage -- I mean, I wanted crit and that's a bit scary but I also just love telling stories, so to be able to tell a new one was fun. It's exciting!

There's a lot that needs to be added, and Christopher and Lucas discussing the boy is one of them, definitely. But the mystery should remain at least somewhat intact, I agree.

This was a GREAT experience :)

[info]aimsleydale

March 3 2009, 03:30:43 UTC 3 years ago

I finished reading this a few days ago and have been letting it absorb :) This is a very beautiful story and so atmospheric that I feel as if I've lived in Low Ferry this past week. I was dying in some places to get out my editing pen and fix sentences here and there, but got too caught up in the story :D I do think it needs some work, and it has a fragile quality about it; perhaps because of the vulnerable position you've placed yourself in posting it online for us all to shred.

I'm pretty tired right now, so I only have two things to say:

1. I drawed you some fanarts :B They are both here at my creative journal. I drew Lucas and Nameless and a sort of concept/abstract thing of the Boy, hope you like them!

2. A style note concerning the boy: 60-70% of the time, the boy's namelessness didn't bother me. Those times it did, I thought, could have been improved by changing either 'the' to 'that' and 'boy' to 'kid' or maybe 'child'. The the/that thing works best when the boy is mentioned in a crowd of other people, or waiting for Christopher, for example. It sometimes seemed weird for Christopher to call him 'the boy', as if he was the only boy he knew. Once they are alone together 'the' seems more natural, I thought.

I know you're putting a lot of effort into turning the boy around structurally, but didn't see anyone making this suggestion. I only mention it because of all the times I mentally crossed out 'the' and substitued 'that' - and found the flow easier. Same for boy/kid. Hope the idea is at least a little helpful :)

[info]copperbadge

March 3 2009, 14:40:39 UTC 3 years ago

Thank you! The drawings are lovely :) I'm going to be putting up an index post in the next few days, do you mind if I link to the art post? (I particularly like the drawing of the boy...there's something just slightly eerie about it :D).

And thanks for the feedback -- hopefully I'll be able to convey the boy a little better in the rewrite!
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